Steve Gorman interviewed by DJ Johnson "Rock and Roll" is an often misused label that has been slapped on everything from Buddy Holly to Madonna. There are almost as many definitions as there are listeners. Let's get classical for a moment. I don't mean Mozart, I'm talking about the classic sound of rock and roll. If you tear it down to its basic roots, you'll notice nobody is standing there anymore. Tear it down to the level of fantastic riffs, fat tones, thudding bass, snapping drums and, best of all, a little twist of the American south, and you see only The Black Crowes standing on hallowed ground. Formed in Atlanta, Georgia, in 1984, The Black Crowes spent six years honing their chops and having one hell of a good time being in an honest to God rock and roll band. The lineup of Chris Robinson (vocals), his brother Rich Robinson (guitar), drummer Steve Gorman, bassist Johnny Colt, and guitarist Jeff Cease surprised everyone when their small label debut, Shake Your Money Maker [Def American Records] became a multi-platinum success in 1990. Their cover of Otis Redding's "Too Hard To Handle" kept them on the FM dial all year long and the record eventually sold in excess of five million copies. Since that time, the band has become a most impressive concert attraction and their albums have continued to impress, some say, getting stronger with each effort. But it hasn't been an easy road. The well documented scuffles between the Robinson brothers, the drug problems, messy divorces, and emotional baggage have all taken their toll, culminating with a 1995 shake-up that saw the departures of Cease and Colt. As the tremors died down, the Crowes headed into the studio to make By Your Side with a new bass player (Sven Pipien), a new producer (Kevin Shirley), and a new record label (Columbia). Rather than replace Cease right away, Rich Robinson handled all the guitar chores himself in the studio. The result is a powerful guitar album that is his masterwork, certain to influence countless young guitarists and help insure the voice of rock and roll in the years to come. With the release of By Your Side and the new tour, which includes new guitarist Eddie Harsch, The band seems to have hit a comfortable stride. They know what they want and how to make it happen. According to Steve Gorman, The Black Crowes are finally flying in the light. Cosmik: The new Black Crowes album, By Your Side, is officially out there in the stores, doing well... but getting there wasn't exactly an easy road, was it? Gorman: It's always been a little tough. One thing about the new record is that we learned along the way that we've made a lot of things harder on ourselves than they really were. From the time the tour for our last album ended, like from August of '97 through January of '99, when this record came out, things were actually really easy. We had a new record company and two guys had left the band, and on the surface these were all these things that seemed to be pretty tough, like we're starting from scratch with a new company and blah blah blah. But actually, the toughest times were the few years leading up to that, and what we felt was that we had come through those times and really learned a lot. It kind of turned our attitude around about a lot of things. Cosmik: What kind of things, for instance? Gorman: Not really anything that specific. I mean, there were problems. There were bad marriages, and there were drug problems, there were brother problems, and there were things within the band. But everyone's getting older, like we're in our 30s now, and just the natural maturing that you go through helped us find a balance in life. It's just basic human stuff. But it all seemed to take effect right at the time Johnny and Mark left the band. Chris went through a divorce, and for all of us there were just things that seemed wrong, but we found ourselves coming out of it in a sort of peaceful headspace. Like "okay, things are lining up now." We had bottomed out, but we'd gotten through it and we felt stronger as a band and more committed to it than ever. So the whole song writing process, the recording process, and then getting the record ready and doing setup stuff to get it to come out, that was the hardest we'd ever worked, but it was also the most enjoyable time. We were in sync and very much together. So it really wasn't a painful time. The painful times were before that when everything seemed a little crazy. When two guys leave the band in the space of a week--one guy we fired and one guy quit--everybody hears that and they think "oh my God, they must be in hell." Well, no, because once those guys were gone, that helped. Those were issues that had resolved. But people hear about them for the first time and it's like when you hear about somebody getting divorced; by the time you hear about it the ink is dry on the paper and everything's probably calmed down. So the year and a half leading up to the album wasn't very painful, but couple years before that period was really tough. Cosmik: While all that was happening, and all those obstacles were in front of you, was there ever a time when you thought there might never be another Black Crowes album? Gorman: The only time I thought about that was back in the spring of '95, while we were touring for the record Amorica. That record was really hard. MAKING the record was hard, TOURING was impossible. Somebody was fighting with somebody every day, and there was a lot of "I quit" going on. No one ever did, but if people weren't threatening to quit every day, they were at least saying "when this tour ends, I'm outta here." No one wanted to quit in the middle of a tour. We felt like "we've made a commitment and we'll see it through," but the discussion for most of the spring of '95 was "when this thing ends in August, we're done." Looking back, I'm sure everyone was hoping it would work itself out by then. And that seemed to be the case. By the time the tour ended, there was no more of that kind of talk. It was all about "what are we gonna do next? Let's get together and work." Now, the fallout of that, I think, is it led to a lot of the problems that Johnny and Mark had. I don't think they necessarily came around that much. I think Johnny had started to go in a very different direction just in his personal life. For most of us, the late 20s is a time when you really examine things and think "is this really what I want out of life?" I think he was going through that pretty strongly at a time when he didn't think the band was going to stay together. And then when the band DID stay together, I think he was really looking elsewhere. Then it took him a couple years to get to the point where he was ready to officially say "I'm gone." That was tough, but it was his decision, so it was okay. But that was a long time in coming, so by the time he actually said "I quit," we were like "yeah, we understand and we saw it coming too, and good luck." So for him, it all carried over a lot longer, but for me, '95 was the only time I remember thinking "I'll bet this thing is just gonna end. Cosmik: When you think of all the difficulties surrounding that album, tour, and time, does it make it hard to even listen to the record anymore? Does it have too many negative connotations? Gorman: No, the good thing about your memory is you tend to remember the good stuff. I'm aware of what was going on, but then also you get a little bit of perspective on things, and you begin to see patterns. It's important to remember that stuff because you have to be sure you don't repeat mistakes. We can be in the middle of a tour, everything going great, and you suddenly get a bug up your ass that's about nothing. It's just out of habit. It's like "in the past, touring hasn't been fun, so I have to be on the lookout." We have to remind ourselves "wait a minute, man, everything's fine." Like I said, we used to make it hard on ourselves. We used to put so much pressure on ourselves that we all but imploded there for a while. That was a big part of what was going on back in 1995. I look back on it and it can be painful if I see flashes of similar behavior, either in myself or someone else, because I can feel it again. But to just look back on it and talk about it, it doesn't take away from what we were doing, because I thought the shows were great. We were playing very well. Cosmik: So you can listen to the record and say "that's really good rock." Gorman: Oh, yeah. Cosmik: I want to ask you a few specific things about By Your Side. First of all, [producer] Kevin Shirley seems to have been a good fit. Gorman: Lovely guy. Cosmik: Your drum sound is great on this record. Gorman: It's a great room at Avatar [studios in New York]. We miked those drums in ten minutes the first day and didn't touch them again. Kevin works at Avatar a lot, and it's a fantastic, very natural sounding room. You know why it sounded great? Because it sounded like drums! Cosmik: Sounds like wood! Gorman: Exactly! Sounds like drums! Go figure. It's a big, boomy room, and I played just the four-piece Ludwig kit that I tour with, and we just miked the room, miked the drums and got a couple sounds. I remember I played the kit for ten minutes, and Kevin says "come in and listen." I walked in [to the control room] and listened to the tape, and it sounded exactly like it did in the room. I said "let's go!" And we never touched the mikes again for the whole record. Cosmik: How close is it to your live sound? Gorman: Well, it's close, but you know, every venue's different. It's never as clear. Cosmik: I would rephrase that to say "how close to the live sound you hear within a twenty-foot radius of the drums?" Gorman: If you're standing there? It sounds pretty similar, yeah. That room is so good. When a studio records like that, it's impossible to recreate that in a big theater. Kevin loves that room, and he knew exactly where the drums should be. Cosmik: The whole album sounds incredible. Rich's playing knocks me out. It seems like the whole experience of being the only guitarist really opened up a new side of him. Gorman: Oh, absolutely. We talked about it, and there was some discussion of whether we would need another guitarist. Obviously, yes, for the tour, but for the record, we all felt there was no need at all. Who's going to be more connected to the songs than the song writer himself? His soloing on the record is fantastic. Rich's sound has always been the guitar sound of the band. I don't think people really understood how much he played on all the other albums up to this one. He's played a whole lot of guitars on all the records. It's just that now he's the ONLY guitarist, so I think now, if you hear this record, you can go back and pick out what he was doing this whole time. Cosmik: This album has to be one of the hottest collections of riffs in years. Gorman: The working title for a while was "Riff-a-Rama." (Laughs.) Cosmik: Did you ever walk in while Rich was working on these riffs and just jump on the drums and say "hot damn" just because the riffs were so compelling? Gorman: Oh yeah! All the time! And he does so many of them. He's just playing, and you'd have to stop him and say "wait, do that part again!" Because he'll just go through thirty ideas in a row. He'll play a great riff and Chris'll say "wait! That was it!" And Rich will say "naw, that was nothing!" Chris'll say "no, no, just do it like two more times in a row," and all of a sudden this huge riff comes out of it. When Rich sits down, he'll just throw a shitload of things on the wall, and then the next day, when he comes back, we just work on the ones he remembers. We can work on some parts, but if he doesn't remember it, he doesn't care. He says "if I remember 'em, they're good." Cosmik: With two new guys in the band, how difficult was it to get used to what they do, and then to bring it all back to The Crowes sound? Gorman: Well, it wasn't difficult for us. It was all on them. When Sven joined, we knew he was a great bass player. We'd known him for 15 years. He was the only guy we were interested in. We were working on all new songs, so he had to figure out "okay, what's their daily work mode like, what's the social rhythm, who does what around here," you know... He's the new guy. In any group dynamic, the new guy has to do the work. We're not gonna change the way WE are. We're asking him to join our group, we're not starting a new group. "Sven, this is the way we do it. Can you find your space within that?" And he overwhelmingly did that. But it was all on him, because Rich and I are not going to disrupt the way we play together for a new bass player, and he'd never ask us to. The point is to find a guy who fits this thing. And that doesn't mean find a guy who plays like Johnny, it means he finds his own space within me and Rich. Cosmik: The relationship between drums and bass, though, that groove... If you're professionals, you can get one going, but... Gorman: Yeah, you can get one going with anybody that's competent, but if you get a spark and you feel that magic and it clicks right away, that's what you're looking for. Like I said, Sven's the only guy we wanted, but we still didn't know if it was going to work. Cosmik: How did he end up there? Gorman: I called Sven and said "do you want to come in and just jam with me and Rich for a night?" And he said "yeah, I'd love to... why?" I said "we just want to get together and play." He says "well where's Johnny?" "Well, Johnny quit, but I'm not asking you to audition. We just haven't played with anyone else in eight years. I'm just asking you a favor because you have a bass and you're a good player. We just want to see what another bass player would do." Cosmik: Why did you approach it that way? Gorman: Because I didn't want it to be a pressure situation. Of course, we show up the next night and he says "well, you can call this what you want, but I'm here to get this gig." I thought "Ooookay, so much for my thinking that I'd make this easy on him." Cosmik: Smart guy. Gorman: He's a very smart guy. The first thing we played... it was just the three of us, and we said "do you want to play one of our songs, or something else?" He said "let's play 'thorn in my pride.'" I thought "okay, that's an interesting first bite." We played through it once, and the room just sort of exploded. It was phenomenal. He's a different type of player than Johnny is, and he was adding his own things here and there. For the most part he was playing like it was on the record, but with his own style. With any musician, you can play the exact same notes but it's always going to sound different. We played one song and Sven walked out of the room because he'd left something in his car. Rich and I just looked at each other, and Rich said "well, THAT was easy." I said "God damn!" And I'm waiting for bad part, you know? Like "I'm sure he just got lucky and got off on the right foot, and it'll all fall apart here in a second." And it just never did. Sven's a phenomenal musician. We've known him for a long time, and the thing is, he knows our records. He told us, "man, I've spent the last six years just knowing I was the right guy for this band, and you guys just didn't know it. That helped. He had a definite idea ahead of time of how he saw himself fitting into us. He wasn't coming in cold. Cosmik: Did Chris catch on right away, too? Gorman: Oh, yeah. We talked to Chris on the phone that night, I mean each of us called him separately, and he said "I just talked to Rich," and I said "yeah, well, it's done. We played with this kid for a couple of hours, and it's just perfect." I mean, he was making mistakes, he didn't know the (new) songs, but you could just see it was all there. It's like rookie camp; you can just see who's gonna be the best ball player. When Chris and Eddie came in, it was the same thing. We played on night, and they both said "damn!" Of course, we didn't tell Sven that for a few months. Gotta keep the kid wonderin', ya know? (Laughs) But once we said "wanna join the band," we've never looked back or sideways. Nothing but forward. Cosmik: When you bring in a new player with that kind of skill, one who maybe comes at it from a different perspective, does that kick sparks into the whole band? Gorman: Yeah, I think it does. And then, on the other side, he saw us when we felt more focused and motivated than we'd felt in a long time. We had no distractions. The things that had been distractions for the two years leading up to that were all gone. We felt very stripped down and focused. And the fact that we'd been doing this together for ten years, I think, inspired Sven just as much. It was a two-way street. On the one hand, his energy was insane because one day he's working at a pizza place and the next day he's in The Black Crowes. Trust me, he was aware of that every day in the fall of '97 when we were working on these new songs. He'd come in every day saying "I can not believe I'm getting paid to be in a band." Because I think he was thinking it wasn't gonna happen for him. So, obviously, his energy level was just through the roof, and we certainly picked up on it. It's been refreshing. Everything we've done, from getting to the studio to actually making a video, which we all think is just the most boring thing in the world, he's just doing it for the first time. His enthusiasm makes us realize "yeah, I guess this IS pretty cool. This is all right!" Cosmik: So after all of these things going back to the tour of '95, is a new album like this something like shedding the old skin? Gorman: I think so. You know what it is? The album's all about balance. Taking your lumps, feeling good, and achieving a balance in life. We feel great, we haven't always felt great, we might not feel great tomorrow. But you know what? It's all going to be okay. Your life is what you make of it. You know, there's a song on the record called "Welcome To The Good Times," and it's not "welcome to the gratuitous good times because we're in a rock and roll band." It's "Welcome to the good times, did you bring your own parade?" The good times are just when things aren't bad. You've got to acknowledge things as they're happening and say "hey, things are pretty cool right now." We were so driven and had our heads in the sand so much of the time that... well, I know for a fact that we didn't enjoy a lot of the early 90s. The majority of them. There were moments of time when we were having a tremendous amount of fun, but they were few and far between. What's the most fun you ever have? It's the things you don't plan. The things that just happen, and then the next day you say "God damn, that was great!" Then if you go try to re-create it it's just miserable? Yeah, that's just life. But that certainly effects how we relate to each other as a band and as friends. You can't have light if you don't understand the dark. Cosmik: The positive message of "Welcome To The Good Times" is interesting, too, because it's not the popular message being heard in rock and roll these days. Gorman: No, I don't think so. I don't think there's a whole lot of anything being heard in rock and roll these days. I don't think there IS rock and roll, very much. Rock and roll, in its essense, represents freedom. That's freedom for the band to do what they want to do. freedom for the fans to get away from something... If you come to see our show, hopefully, you have two hours where you're just there. You can release, and you can enjoy it, and you can whatever you want from it, physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Anything you want is there if you can make it happen for yourself. It's a social thing, a sharing between the band and audience. "Here, we're giving this to you. Take it and give it back, and we'll give it back again." It's a cool thing. I think, with a lot of young bands, it's really not about freedom, but about manipulation. "Look how great we are... buy our record." They don't seem to be getting into bands to be in bands anymore. We got in the band to BE in a band. Cosmik: And not to score with a lot of women? Gorman: Well, sure, but that's part of being in a band. It wasn't to score a record deal, make albums and fly around the world. I mean, who thinks of that shit when their 18? It's "let's get into a band so we can leave on weekends, go out of town, meet some chicks, score some free beer, crash on someone's floor, and then wake up and feel cool." (Laughs) I mean, that's what it comes down to. And then, in the meantime, if we get good at it, well then we'll think about maybe getting a record deal. But the first two years we were in this band, it was just the most romantic thing in the world to us. We were living it and loving it, and that was as far as it went. Cosmik: It wasn't a lot of illusions about getting rich. Gorman: I had every utility turned off at least twice. We had our total starving artist days, but we were having a blast. People look back in their days in the local struggling band and they talk about how horrible it was, but man, we loved it! That was the point. It wasn't supposed to get us anywhere. It was supposed to BE. And we've always maintained the attitude that it's always about today. Part of the reason we drove ourselves so crazy was that every show is so important, but I can be in a bad mood for an entire day, bitching about where ever I am, saying "I don't like this town, and I don't like this or that," and I can't be walking toward that stage going "I don't give a shit about this." But the second that show starts, I think "well, I'm not gonna be the guy that fucks this up. This is the only two hours of the day I get to have fun, sometimes." So we still believe that every day is the only day that matters. Cosmik: So ultimately, the performance is still its own reward. Gorman: Absolutely! If it's not, if it's all about making money, stay in college! 99.999 percent of the people who ever picked up a guitar never made a dime at it. To be making, not just money, but our living at music, we're the luckiest people on earth. Cosmik: Then you add all the people who appreciate what you're doing. Gorman: Oh, it's phenomenal. It BETTER be its own reward! It's rock and roll music, and it's the 90s. If people thought the world was too corporate twenty years ago, my God! And it's only getting worse. If the reward isn't that feeling and emotion... I mean, obviously, I want us to sell as many records as we can. We don't have a pension plan. I have concerns like that, you know? I'm not living in a fantasy world where I think just because people cheer everything's going to be okay. But at the same time, if I didn't get a buzz from getting up and playing our songs in front of people, I sure as hell would be doing something else. Cosmik: Well, if rock and roll is its own reward, you should feel pretty good about the new album. It feels like the most legitimate rock and roll album in ages. It reminds me of the days when rock and roll was also about the sound of the wood in the guitar. Gorman: Absolutely. I love watching people complain about "what happened to rock and roll?" Well, this has been going on for forty years. It comes in and out of fashion. Name whatever you think is the greatest rock and roll album of all time, and then go look at the charts for the time it was there, and you're gonna see "One Eyed Purple People Eater" and "Afternoon Delight" and all that stupid shit. It's always been there. It's just that you forget about it later. When Some Girls [The Rolling Stones] came out, "You Light Up My Life" [Debbie Boone] was the biggest song of the year. Cosmik: Okay, now that's an effective illustration if ever there was one. Gorman: Yeah. It's Some Girls! I could listen to Some Girls today, tonight or anytime I want to, not to mention any Muddy Waters album, or any jazz album or any country album. But any great rock and roll record that you remember as the biggest thing in the world, they weren't. There was always something bigger and more accessible. Cosmik: It's funny. When you said Some Girls, I had just thought Sticky Fingers, and now I'm wondering what was at the top of the chart in 1971. [Ed.Note: Cosmik's crack team of statisticians has uncovered the shocking truth. In May of 1971, when "Brown Sugar" was the #2 song in the US, the number one slot was held by Tony Orlando and Dawn's "Knock Three Times."] Gorman: Now I think the proportions are worse. If it used to be 70-30, I think it's 80-20 now. There are rock and roll bands out there making rock and roll records, but they're a little harder to find. A lot of bands who make those records now don't like the term "rock and roll." They think that means acting a certain way that they have to play up to. Which is just ridiculous, because rock and roll is freedom to do whatever you want. I think Wilco makes great records, and I don't know why they don't consider themselves a rock and roll band. They are. Cosmik: Bands are afraid to be called retro. Gorman: That's exactly it. Hell, we've been called retro from day one, and we don't give a shit. Cosmik: It's all media labels anyway. Gorman: Sure it is. It's like what is alternative? And now we can deal with POST-alternative. It's just so silly, specified, and compartmentalized. Look at the package tours that go out, and look at radio stations. It all has to sound the same. It's really sad. We did FURTHER in '97 and we did HORDE in '95 for the same reason we do European festivals every other summer, because you get on a bill with a bunch of different types of music. We did shows in '93 in Europe where the bill was Metallica, Neil Young, The Neville Brothers, Tragically Hip, Sinead O'Connor, us, and some English band with turntables. And ya know what? 60,000 people show up, they stay all day, and they like every band. And that's great! When we get on stage after Neil Young and before Metallica, and everybody likes all three, that's pretty cool. It's not a question of what WE like. We're going over in June and July, and we're on some bills that you wouldn't believe. But it's not possible here. The younger bands now don't want to go to Europe. So many of the bands that have had big US records in the last five years are meaningless in Europe. They don't bother to go, which is just so strange to me. The second we could... I remember being told "you guys just sold 50,000 records," and we asked our manager "well, can we go to England?" Get around. Go to South America. Go to Japan. Get around! They don't want to go there and have to play smaller clubs. Cosmik: You would think they'd jump at the chance just to get the experience. Gorman: Man, I love nothing more than flipping through my passport and saying "look at that! Damn!" It's great. It's all about the experience. We don't have an agenda... well, I should say we don't have a campaign. We're not sitting in a board room figuring out what to do, like "if this happens we'll go this way, and if that happens, we'll go that way." No, it's more like "let's just go. We'll figure it out when it's all over, and see where we made our mistakes, but while we're doing it, let's just do it. We're not happy to make mistakes, but we're not afraid to make them, either. Cosmik: Do you think fear is the prime motivator for other bands these days? Gorman: There's a lot of fear out there. People are very career-minded in music right now. And a lot of bands listen to everything everyone at their record label tells them. They think when they sign with a label that makes them partners. Cosmik: Doesn't it? Gorman: It does, in a business sense, but it doesn't mean that they know what's best for you. Your job is to make your records, their job is to promote and sell your records. That's two very different things. I have no problem with the business. It IS a business. It doesn't bother me that record companies do things that car companies do. I don't give a shit. What they don't do is come into our studio and dictate to us, so why do I care? They have their world, this is our world, and if the two can work together, great. Cosmik: They don't even try? Gorman: No. They would with any other band, but we started off on a tiny label and we made our first record for, literally, a bag of peanuts and diet coke, and it sold five million records, so who's going to tell us anything? But I understand it's gotta be tough on young bands, because you do have people pressuring you, but when you read interviews with musicians and they talk about the pressures of the industry, I think "well, you signed." It's the artist's responsibility to find freedom within those restraints. Of course it's constraints! If it weren't, we could all just wake up and fart on tape and say "here's our new record." That's where your own moral compass comes in, your own work ethic. We didn't get into this to fail. We want to succeed. But we want to succeed on OUR terms. And if what I think success is and what the record company thinks success is are different things, that's okay. They can get theirs and we can get ours, but you can't give in to those people. Cosmik: Would you say you have a good relationship with your label? Gorman: We have a great relationship with Columbia right now. It's awesome. And I'm not one of those people who goes around complaining about "the fuckin' record label." Cosmik: I'm used to hearing horror stories about not being able to get along with the label people. Gorman: They're doing their job. At least they know who we are and answer our phone calls (Laughs). But it's not a focal point for us. Again, I didn't get into a band to hang out with record people, and they aren't doing what they're doing to hang out with the guys in bands. It's apples and oranges. It's like Chris always says, "it's like talking to a cop. Are you gonna win the argument? No. You might be right, but you're not going to win, so just deal with it." Cosmik: Then again, there is a long history of dirty tricks pulled by labels on fledgling bands. Gorman: Of course there are, but there's also a long history of people making music because they just want to make music, and like I said, 99 percent of the people who've ever picked up a guitar never made their living at it. You have to maintain that perspective. Not everyone's gonna have Mick Jagger's life. We've been doing this for twelve years, and for nine of them we've been considered a really big band, and I don't have a monocle and a top hat. Believe me, this is not lucrative. Very few people get to that next level, so you have to focus on what makes you happy as a person. And I realize it's getting harder in today's Internet world... Mr... Internet guy! Cosmik: (Laughs) Wait... Gorman: It's becoming tougher, but at the end of the day it still has to touch you inside. The bands that give in to those things, you can spot 'em. Everyone can tell when a band gives in. Everyone knows right away. When we came to Columbia last year, another band told us "man, watch out for those guys, they're all bullies over there." I said "Great, so are we! We'll get along fine." We only have ONE band, so we won't be bullied. If someone's in charge of a hundred bands, they won't bully me. I only got one, and if I let someone else dictate what happens to it, we'll all be in hell before you know it. Cosmik: Now let's back up a second here. Mr. Internet guy? You said that with some disdain. (Laughs) Why are you suspicious of the Internet? Gorman: Oh, no, I think it's a tool, like anything else. If it's used right, it's incredible, but I think there's too much reliance on it. When I talk to someone who says "well, I've never been to the Louvre in Paris, but I've pulled it up on the Net, so now I don't have to go," I just kinda go "uh, well... it's... really not the same." Cosmik: On the other hand, for people who can't afford to get there... Gorman: Oh, I know that, but it's not just as good as. How many people go into chat rooms and really express themselves, and then they can't look someone in the eye and shake their hand and say hello in [real life]. This is nothing to do with rock and roll, but it's my opinion. If it's a tool, it's great, but if it's an excuse and a shield, no. If it's helping your life, it's fine, but like anything else, it can overtake you. And with some people it does. Hell, it's just like alcohol, a great thing that's been around for a thousand years that can ruin your life. Use it as a tool, but don't use it to cut yourself off from people. I think the only hope that this species has is to stay close. The closer we get packed in, the more distantly we live from each other. Cosmik: We've talked about keeping fear out of the equation, and we've talked about not being afraid to make mistakes. There have been plenty of obstacles, but here you are. Gorman: That's one of the things I'm proudest of, that we have fucked up... gloriously! But you know what, that's our right, and we learn from 'em, so we move on. We're not afraid.